Illusions

Question:

I said about Elvis, pompous chiropractor extraordinaire– >I recognise this kind of chiropractor.  I have spoken to a number of them. >It "works" because they say so.

Jan said– >Wrong. Drop by an office,,,,,,,,,,,,,you’ll see people waiting. *IF it didn’t >work,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,they would be out of business.

Medical waiting rooms are well-populated with patients that will get better of their own accord or with the help of other facets of placebo ‘activity’. There are also those who mainly need sympathetic attention, whether they eventually get better or not. They will all tell the ‘doctor’  how marvellous he is.  I know.  I have been there. What you won’t find in any waiting room  are patients not benefited by previous care or made worse.    They don’t come back.    They are busy telling their next doctor all about it and making him feel good because he thinks he never  has failures like that. And people are so nice to their ‘doctors’.  They will try as hard as they can to get better for him/her, or find some way in which the treatment is helping.  A liked  doctor will hardly ever hear anything bad about his treatment. Bad results are thus largely invisible to the practitioner.     And if his methods ever seem to fail to work there are scads of possible excuses to find. These are just some of the illusions giving those in any kind of medical or paramedical practice  a highly distorted impression of their effectiveness. I am not knocking illusion in general.  We all need certain illusions to survive and medical ones are clearly fulfilling for many on both sides of the action.  We all seem to be programmed this way. But if you cannot see how  it is that so many frankly senseless pseudoscientific notions are  sustained within alternative medicine, you are just not standing far enough back from the problem. P Moran

Response:

>What you won’t find in any waiting room  are patients not benefited by >previous care or made worse.    They don’t come back.    They are busy >telling their next doctor all about it and making him feel good because he >thinks he never  has failures like that.

Quite right Peter, but those patients will tell everyone that the doctor A is rubbish, don’t go near him. And they will tell everyone that doctor B is great, solves the problem every time. Nope, alt health clinics are filling up because of word of mouth.   If something works for you, you tell everyone about it. Best wishes — John Bain UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/Magnotherapy.html Surround Sound for Television

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I said about Elvis, pompous chiropractor extraordinaire– >>I recognise this kind of chiropractor.  I have spoken to a number of them. >>It "works" because they say so. >Jan said– >Wrong. Drop by an office,,,,,,,,,,,,,you’ll see people waiting. *IF it >didn’t >work,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,they would be out of business. >Medical waiting rooms are well-populated with patients that will get better >of their own accord or with the help of other facets of placebo ‘activity’. >There are also those who mainly need sympathetic attention, whether they >eventually get better or not.

Now there is an excellent example of organized medicine thinking,,,,,,,,,,, These people AREN’T really sick,,,,,,,,,,,,,they just need attention! How little you know. <snip> >Bad results are thus largely invisible to the practitioner.  

That is total BS!    And if his >methods ever seem to fail to work there are scads of possible excuses to >find.

Peter,,,,,,,,,,,,,people are tuning to alt. medicine because they are getting GOOD RESULTS. >These are just some of the illusions

No this is organized medicine speak. People are mighty tired of it. >But if you cannot see how  it is that so many frankly senseless >pseudoscientific notions are  sustained within alternative medicine, you are >just not standing far enough back from the problem.

LOL,,,,,,,,,,,,,what I see and FEEL is regained health,,,,,,,,,,,,,after nearly dying. What you SAY it something you read in a book,,,,,,,,,,,, BIG DIFFERENCE! Jan

Response:

>>What you won’t find in any waiting room  are patients not benefited by >previous care or made worse.    They don’t come back.    They are busy >telling their next doctor all about it and making him feel good because he >thinks he never  has failures like that. >Quite right Peter, but those patients will tell everyone that the doctor A is >rubbish, don’t go near him.

But depending on the composition of A’s  practice at least fifty per cent of his clients will be out there saying they got better even if the methodology used does nothing. Even more so with some ailments.   Look at back pain.   Virtually a hundred per cent of acute back pain is improved within three weeks whatever you do for it. So all that chirorpractors have to do to get waiting rooms full of people with back pain is to create the perception that chiropractic is needed to treat it. >And they will tell everyone that doctor B is great, solves the problem every >time.

Applies whether a placebo-related effect or not. Peter

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Medical waiting rooms are well-populated with patients that will get better >of their own accord or with the help of other facets of placebo ‘activity’. >There are also those who mainly need sympathetic attention, whether they >eventually get better or not. > Now there is an excellent example of organized medicine thinking,,,,,,,,,,, > These people AREN’T really sick,,,,,,,,,,,,,they just need attention! > How little you know. > Jan

Actually, Jan, it’s how little *you* know.  You’ve never been a doctor, so you haven’t had the opportunity to see it from the other side.  On the other hand, people like Peter M and I see it every day: concerned patients/Mommies who present to the office with "X" sign or symptom, and all they really want is reassurance that it’s not serious. We’re in the position to say, "It’s not cancer", or "It’s not meningitis."  They don’t always want a drug or a big explanation…VERY often, all they want is to have a doctor tell them that they’ll be okay. Chiros, OTOH, (some of them at least) seem to have "trained" their clientele to believe that without regular adjustments, their health will fail and they’ll become chronically ill. Mark, MD

Response:

>Even more so with some ailments.   Look at back pain.   Virtually a hundred >per cent of acute back pain is improved within three weeks whatever you do >for it.

What a stupid statement! If your back is out of place,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,let me assure you it doesn’t get better by doing nothing! >So all that chirorpractors have to do to get waiting rooms full of people >with back pain is to create the perception that chiropractic is needed to >treat it.

BUZZ OFF,,,,,,,,,,,,,,you don’t have a clue! I am getting SOOOOOOOOOOOO sick and tired of this nonchalant attitude. You are a disgrace of a doctor! BARF,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Response:

>But depending on the composition of A’s  practice at least fifty per cent of >his clients will be out there saying they got better even if the methodology >used does nothing.

You underestimate people, Peter.   Most people who go to a chiro claim instant relief. Even if that has nothing to do with the underlying problem which will get better, don’t you think you should be offering something better than ‘leave it 3 weeks and it will go away’ >Even more so with some ailments.   Look at back pain.   Virtually a hundred >per cent of acute back pain is improved within three weeks whatever you do >for it.

Isn’t that the defintion, Peter.   It’s chronic if it lasts longer? And the patients think it worth while if they can get instant relief from a chiro session. If you can’t abide chiros, perhaps you could suggest some other form of body work. If you were a practicing GP of course. >So all that chirorpractors have to do to get waiting rooms full of people >with back pain is to create the perception that chiropractic is needed to >treat it.

So all those people walking out shouting ‘Halleluia, the pain has gone’ is a bonus? >And they will tell everyone that doctor B is great, solves the problem >every time. >Applies whether a placebo-related effect or not.

Perhaps you had better find a similar procedure that offers instant relief. Or refer your patients to a chiro. If they want instant relief from pain of course. Best wishes — John Bain UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/Magnotherapy.html Surround Sound for Television

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >Medical waiting rooms are well-populated with patients that will get better > >of their own accord or with the help of other facets of placebo ‘activity’. > >There are also those who mainly need sympathetic attention, whether they > >eventually get better or not. > Now there is an excellent example of organized medicine thinking,,,,,,,,,,, > These people AREN’T really sick,,,,,,,,,,,,,they just need attention! > How little you know. > Jan > Actually, Jan, it’s how little *you* know.  You’ve never been a > doctor, so you haven’t had the opportunity to see it from the other > side.  On the other hand, people like Peter M and I see it every day: > concerned patients/Mommies who present to the office with "X" sign or > symptom, and all they really want is reassurance that it’s not > serious. > We’re in the position to say, "It’s not cancer", or "It’s not > meningitis."  They don’t always want a drug or a big > explanation…VERY often, all they want is to have a doctor tell them > that they’ll be okay. > Chiros, OTOH, (some of them at least) seem to have "trained" their > clientele to believe that without regular adjustments, their health > will fail and they’ll become chronically ill.

The very definition of acute back pain is that it goes away after a short period of time, treated or not.  If someone wants to spend money to see a DC or MD for it, all well & good — just as they may choose to use anti-inflammatories, massage, or other modalities to relieve the pain sooner rather than waiting a few weeks or less for the pain to go away on its own.  Some of us choose to let Nature take its course for acute back pain. Chronic back pain — different story.  Finding the cause (including stuff like poor body mechanics) & treating the pain & disability is important, if only because chronic pain takes its toll on the patient.  Patients respond differently to various treatment, so no one treatment is effective for everyone, conventional or alternative. We have become a culture of people who expect instant relief from our problems.  Whether this relief comes from DC’s, MD’s, a pill bottle, a liquor bottle — it doesn’t make much difference to many, many people.  Unfortunately, this impatience & unwillingness to tolerate discomfort for even a short period of time has led to a lot of problems from the "solutions" so many utilize — money wasted, addiction, unecessary time devoted to a situation that can often resolve itself in a short period of time.  Giving the body a chance to heal itself in such short term situations is an option many refuse to consider. Michele

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > >Medical waiting rooms are well-populated with patients that will get >better > > >of their own accord or with the help of other facets of placebo >’activity’. > > >There are also those who mainly need sympathetic attention, whether they > > >eventually get better or not. > > Now there is an excellent example of organized medicine >thinking,,,,,,,,,,, > > These people AREN’T really sick,,,,,,,,,,,,,they just need attention! > > How little you know. > > Jan > Actually, Jan, it’s how little *you* know.

Actually Mark, you need to address the post that hasn’t been cleared up yet. The one where you lost your temper and said some pretty nasty things. Have you read the article yet? Did you find your mistake? <snip> > Chiros, OTOH, (some of them at least) seem to have "trained" their > clientele to believe that without regular adjustments, their health > will fail and they’ll become chronically ill.

I don’t believe it. Please do post your references,,,,,,,,,,,or is this just *your* opinion. Jan

Response:

> > Actually, Jan, it’s how little *you* know.  You’ve never been a > doctor, so you haven’t had the opportunity to see it from the other > side.

not sure who wrote this, but whoever it is has a serious god complex going on. many of us have family members in the health industry, and although we might not be doctors ourselves and don’t have that specific POV, there is no reason to belittle someone for not having first hand MD experience in these discussions. > On the other hand, people like Peter M and I see it every day: > concerned patients/Mommies who present to the office with "X" sign or > symptom, and all they really want is reassurance that it’s not > serious.

bullshit. i am concerned mommy. i do not ever just want assurance that something isn’t serious. i want the TRUTH. and don’t you doubt that in your next throes of godhead. > We’re in the position to say, "It’s not cancer", or "It’s not > meningitis."  They don’t always want a drug or a big > explanation…VERY often, all they want is to have a doctor tell them > that they’ll be okay.

again, bullshit. we want the truth. no one wants bad news. but no one wants to be patronized or jerked around either. how ridiculous of you to think otherwise. > Chiros, OTOH, (some of them at least) seem to have "trained" their > clientele to believe that without regular adjustments, their health > will fail and they’ll become chronically ill.

then they (the ones who do this) should be shut down. > The very definition of acute back pain is that it goes away after a > short period of time, treated or not.  If someone wants to spend money > to see a DC or MD for it, all well & good — just as they may choose > to use anti-inflammatories, massage, or other modalities to relieve > the pain sooner rather than waiting a few weeks or less for the pain > to go away on its own.  Some of us choose to let Nature take its > course for acute back pain.

no one should go to a chiro, acupuncturist, or an MD for immediate onset of backpain imho. there isn’t anything any one of them can do or diagnose right away. > Chronic back pain — different story.

exactly. > Finding the cause (including > stuff like poor body mechanics) & treating the pain & disability is > important, if only because chronic pain takes its toll on the patient. >  Patients respond differently to various treatment, so no one > treatment is effective for everyone, conventional or alternative.

yes. > We have become a culture of people who expect instant relief from our > problems.

somewhat true. > Whether this relief comes from DC’s, MD’s, a pill bottle, a > liquor bottle — it doesn’t make much difference to many, many people.

many people, yes, but not all. folks are getting a clue any more. but i get your point. >  Unfortunately, this impatience & unwillingness to tolerate discomfort > for even a short period of time has led to a lot of problems from the > "solutions" so many utilize — money wasted, addiction, unecessary > time devoted to a situation that can often resolve itself in a short > period of time.

i agree. but WHO is to judge *where* the money is best wasted? the chiro, the acupuncturist, or the md/pharmacist? it’s ALL basically a crap shoot. and THAT is what folks need to understand. > Giving the body a chance to heal itself in such short > term situations is an option many refuse to consider.

exactly. and that is the fault of the conventional medical arena far moreso than it is of the alternative one. ((NSAIDS)) — Dawn: "You’re not fleeing, you’re…moving at a brisk pace." Buffy: "Quaintly referred to in some cultures as ‘The Big Scairdy Run-Away’."

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >If recognizing that I know a lot of "doctor stuff" means I have a God > >complex…well, I guess you’d have to say I do.  Sorry you have such > >distaste for people who know more than you. > >Mark, MD > Mark, don’t take seriously anything that Ka says.  She’s only here to snipe at > you for her own amusement.  She feels that medical doctors like to invent > spurious diagnoses in order to increase business. > You mean like "subluxation"? >  She has a great resentment > towards medical people who don’t echo her own "shucks, my opinion is every bit > as authoritative as your medical education, internship, residency, and clinical > practice". > What you actually do and for who is of very little concern to Ka.  Like Jan, > she’s here to complain about her dissatisfaction with mainstream medicine. > Thank you.  I figured as much, but had to make my response. > Mark, MD

if you believe anything that ILSA/andrew posts–particularly in regards to something ‘personal’ or advisory about another poster, then you need a serious spanking. do a google search using the words "andrew kingoff" or use ilsa’s own posting title. i don’t need to make ad homs up to discredit this poster—the posts speak for themselves. you’ll find that this is why most regular MHA participants either ignore ILSA/andrew or filter  him/her altogether. — Dawn: "You’re not fleeing, you’re…moving at a brisk pace." Buffy: "Quaintly referred to in some cultures as ‘The Big Scairdy Run-Away’."

Response:

> >If recognizing that I know a lot of "doctor stuff" means I have a God >complex…well, I guess you’d have to say I do.  Sorry you have such >distaste for people who know more than you. >Mark, MD > Mark, don’t take seriously anything that Ka says.  She’s only here to snipe at > you for her own amusement.  She feels that medical doctors like to invent > spurious diagnoses in order to increase business.

You mean like "subluxation"? >  She has a great resentment > towards medical people who don’t echo her own "shucks, my opinion is every bit > as authoritative as your medical education, internship, residency, and clinical > practice". > What you actually do and for who is of very little concern to Ka.  Like Jan, > she’s here to complain about her dissatisfaction with mainstream medicine.

Thank you.  I figured as much, but had to make my response. Mark, MD

Response:

A word to the so called wise. Replying and agreeing with Andrew fake IIsa is very telling. Jan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >If recognizing that I know a lot of "doctor stuff" means I have a God > >complex…well, I guess you’d have to say I do.  Sorry you have such > >distaste for people who know more than you. > >Mark, MD > Mark, don’t take seriously anything that Ka says.  She’s only here to snipe >at > you for her own amusement.  She feels that medical doctors like to invent > spurious diagnoses in order to increase business. >You mean like "subluxation"? >  She has a great resentment > towards medical people who don’t echo her own "shucks, my opinion is every >bit > as authoritative as your medical education, internship, residency, and >clinical > practice". > What you actually do and for who is of very little concern to Ka.  Like >Jan, > she’s here to complain about her dissatisfaction with mainstream medicine. >Thank you.  I figured as much, but had to make my response. >Mark, MD

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > Actually, Jan, it’s how little *you* know.  You’ve never been a > > > doctor, so you haven’t had the opportunity to see it from the other > > > side. > not sure who wrote this, but whoever it is has a serious god complex going > on. > many of us have family members in the health industry, and although we might > not be doctors ourselves and don’t have that specific POV, there is no > reason to belittle someone for not having first hand MD experience in these > discussions. > bullshit. > i am concerned mommy. i do not ever just want assurance that something isn’t > serious. i want the TRUTH. > I think you misunderstood my comments.  I’m not saying I lie to > patients or parents to make them feel better.  I don’t lie to them at > all, as a matter of fact.  If something is serious, you bet your ass I > tell them what’s going on.

you are right, then. i did misunderstand. i got the impression that you would lie to a parent just to tide them over or keep them happy. i find that practice odious. > What I said (or meant to) was that these patients have something going > on, some problem or concern or set of symptoms.  They might not know > exactly what it is, but they’ve heard all the scary buzzwords: > "meningitis", "cancer", "seizure".

i daresay that there aren’t a whole helluva lot of parents who don’t know what any of these illnesses that you mentioned are. > They want the doctor to tell them > what’s going on, in hopes that what IS going on ISN’T one of the scary > buzzwords.

none of those are scary buzzwords, but yes, i wan’t to know that my child doesn’t have meningitis when there’s been a 103-104 fever for 3 days and he is complaining of a neck ache. > As to the God complex snipe:  people come to me because of my training > and knowledge.  (And because I can make a 2 year old with an ear > infection smile, but that’s beside the point.)  The reason they come > to me and don’t just pick a random stranger off the street to ask > about health questions, is because they believe I am someone with > special training who can help them get an answer to their questions.

obviously, i don’t know you personally. i didn’t even know who posted the comment, as i stated. so my ’snipe’ was based solely on the comments that i read. > I’m not God, and I certainly don’t make any pretense thataway.  But I > *am* someone with years of training and the knowledge and ability to > authoritatively tell a concerned Mommy, "No, Suzie doesn’t have > meningitis, and here’s why…"

can you tell me why most doctors don’t do labwork in their offices any more? could it be HMO /  money-payment related? > *That’s* what the Mommy wants to hear. >  She doesn’t bring Suzie to my office because she is dreadfully afraid > that Suzie has a cold;  she’s worried that the fever meant Suzie is > going to die like the kid she heard about on Nightline.

most parents learn pretty quickly that a low grade fever is no biggie. (well, at least one parent–usually the mom, does) > If recognizing that I know a lot of "doctor stuff" means I have a God > complex…well, I guess you’d have to say I do.

your comment: "On the other hand, people like Peter M and I see it every day: concerned patients/Mommies who present to the office with "X" sign or symptom, and all they really want is reassurance that it’s not serious." is what led me to the issue of god complex. > Sorry you have such > distaste for people who know more than you.

i don’t. i never said that i did. au contraire, i admire superior intelligence. i don’t appreciate it when genius is flaunted simply for the flaunter’s own self-esteem or credibility boosting. obviously, MDs have lots of training and education under their belts. they are still not infallible. in fact, sometimes mommies and daddies actually learn/know best. (like a child has chickenpox, and not to give a child a corticosteroid during that time) — Dawn: "You’re not fleeing, you’re…moving at a brisk pace." Buffy: "Quaintly referred to in some cultures as ‘The Big Scairdy Run-Away’."

Response:

>If recognizing that I know a lot of "doctor stuff" means I have a God >complex…well, I guess you’d have to say I do.  Sorry you have such >distaste for people who know more than you. >Mark, MD

Mark, don’t take seriously anything that Ka says.  She’s only here to snipe at you for her own amusement.  She feels that medical doctors like to invent spurious diagnoses in order to increase business.  She has a great resentment towards medical people who don’t echo her own "shucks, my opinion is every bit as authoritative as your medical education, internship, residency, and clinical practice". What you actually do and for who is of very little concern to Ka.  Like Jan, she’s here to complain about her dissatisfaction with mainstream medicine.

Response:

If you are so smart Mark as you claim. How is it that Peter B conned you?? Have you reread the article yet? Did you find your and Peter’s mistake? Do you now know which was the procedure and which was the practice? Do you see that they are two seperate things and twisting these two words changes the story? Why have you not replied to my post?? You came unglued and used profanity which you think was well deserved,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,yet you were wrong. Let’s see how honest you are? No reply is very  telling. Care to clear the record? Jan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > Actually, Jan, it’s how little *you* know.  You’ve never been a > > > doctor, so you haven’t had the opportunity to see it from the other > > > side. > not sure who wrote this, but whoever it is has a serious god complex going > on. > many of us have family members in the health industry, and although we >might > not be doctors ourselves and don’t have that specific POV, there is no > reason to belittle someone for not having first hand MD experience in these > discussions. > > > On the other hand, people like Peter M and I see it every day: > > > concerned patients/Mommies who present to the office with "X" sign or > > > symptom, and all they really want is reassurance that it’s not > > > serious. > bullshit. > i am concerned mommy. i do not ever just want assurance that something >isn’t > serious. i want the TRUTH. >I think you misunderstood my comments.  I’m not saying I lie to >patients or parents to make them feel better.  I don’t lie to them at >all, as a matter of fact.  If something is serious, you bet your ass I >tell them what’s going on. >What I said (or meant to) was that these patients have something going >on, some problem or concern or set of symptoms.  They might not know >exactly what it is, but they’ve heard all the scary buzzwords: >"meningitis", "cancer", "seizure".  They want the doctor to tell them >what’s going on, in hopes that what IS going on ISN’T one of the scary >buzzwords. >As to the God complex snipe:  people come to me because of my training >and knowledge.  (And because I can make a 2 year old with an ear >infection smile, but that’s beside the point.)  The reason they come >to me and don’t just pick a random stranger off the street to ask >about health questions, is because they believe I am someone with >special training who can help them get an answer to their questions. >I’m not God, and I certainly don’t make any pretense thataway.  But I >*am* someone with years of training and the knowledge and ability to >authoritatively tell a concerned Mommy, "No, Suzie doesn’t have >meningitis, and here’s why…"  *That’s* what the Mommy wants to hear. > She doesn’t bring Suzie to my office because she is dreadfully afraid >that Suzie has a cold;  she’s worried that the fever meant Suzie is >going to die like the kid she heard about on Nightline. >If recognizing that I know a lot of "doctor stuff" means I have a God >complex…well, I guess you’d have to say I do.  Sorry you have such >distaste for people who know more than you. >Mark, MD

Response:

>Mark, don’t take seriously anything that Ka says.

UIh huh. Because she proved Andrew to be a liar. <snip more nonsense and hatred of Andrew> Jan

Response:

Mark, how do you know if a person knows "more" than you? Keep in mind that med school is not the only way to healing.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > Actually, Jan, it’s how little *you* know.  You’ve never been a > > > doctor, so you haven’t had the opportunity to see it from the other > > > side. > not sure who wrote this, but whoever it is has a serious god complex going > on. > many of us have family members in the health industry, and although we might > not be doctors ourselves and don’t have that specific POV, there is no > reason to belittle someone for not having first hand MD experience in these > discussions. > > > On the other hand, people like Peter M and I see it every day: > > > concerned patients/Mommies who present to the office with "X" sign or > > > symptom, and all they really want is reassurance that it’s not > > > serious. > bullshit. > i am concerned mommy. i do not ever just want assurance that something isn’t > serious. i want the TRUTH. > I think you misunderstood my comments.  I’m not saying I lie to > patients or parents to make them feel better.  I don’t lie to them at > all, as a matter of fact.  If something is serious, you bet your ass I > tell them what’s going on. > What I said (or meant to) was that these patients have something going > on, some problem or concern or set of symptoms.  They might not know > exactly what it is, but they’ve heard all the scary buzzwords: > "meningitis", "cancer", "seizure".  They want the doctor to tell them > what’s going on, in hopes that what IS going on ISN’T one of the scary > buzzwords. > As to the God complex snipe:  people come to me because of my training > and knowledge.  (And because I can make a 2 year old with an ear > infection smile, but that’s beside the point.)  The reason they come > to me and don’t just pick a random stranger off the street to ask > about health questions, is because they believe I am someone with > special training who can help them get an answer to their questions. > I’m not God, and I certainly don’t make any pretense thataway.  But I > *am* someone with years of training and the knowledge and ability to > authoritatively tell a concerned Mommy, "No, Suzie doesn’t have > meningitis, and here’s why…"  *That’s* what the Mommy wants to hear. >  She doesn’t bring Suzie to my office because she is dreadfully afraid > that Suzie has a cold;  she’s worried that the fever meant Suzie is > going to die like the kid she heard about on Nightline. > If recognizing that I know a lot of "doctor stuff" means I have a God > complex…well, I guess you’d have to say I do.  Sorry you have such > distaste for people who know more than you. > Mark, MD

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> >Medical waiting rooms are well-populated with patients that will get >better >> >of their own accord or with the help of other facets of placebo >’activity’. >> >There are also those who mainly need sympathetic attention, whether they >> >eventually get better or not. >> Now there is an excellent example of organized medicine >thinking,,,,,,,,,,, >> These people AREN’T really sick,,,,,,,,,,,,,they just need attention! >> How little you know. >> Jan >Actually, Jan, it’s how little *you* know.  You’ve never been a >doctor, so you haven’t had the opportunity to see it from the other >side.  On the other hand, people like Peter M and I see it every day: >concerned patients/Mommies who present to the office with "X" sign or >symptom, and all they really want is reassurance that it’s not >serious. >Yes, I understand that much of what family practitioners and >internists do is reassure patients who may have high anxiety about one >symptom or another that there is nothing serious going on

Wrong. Not practitioners,,,,,,,,,,,,,They look for the root of the problem. <snip> >Those who have somatic hypervigilance

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz z. >In fact I suspect that much of the success of alternative medicine >modalities has much to do with reducing anxiety of their clients

I suspect,,,,,,,,,,,,keywords! Rich doesn’t know. <snip more blah blah blah about chiropractors> >Chiros, OTOH, (some of them at least) seem to have "trained" their >clientele to believe that without regular adjustments, their health >will fail and they’ll become chronically ill. >Yes, and this is a big problem.

The big problem is all the garbage from members of organized medicine. Like Rich. Jan

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Actually, Jan, it’s how little *you* know.  You’ve never been a > > doctor, so you haven’t had the opportunity to see it from the other > > side. > not sure who wrote this, but whoever it is has a serious god complex going > on. > many of us have family members in the health industry, and although we might > not be doctors ourselves and don’t have that specific POV, there is no > reason to belittle someone for not having first hand MD experience in these > discussions. > > On the other hand, people like Peter M and I see it every day: > > concerned patients/Mommies who present to the office with "X" sign or > > symptom, and all they really want is reassurance that it’s not > > serious. > bullshit. > i am concerned mommy. i do not ever just want assurance that something isn’t > serious. i want the TRUTH.

I think you misunderstood my comments.  I’m not saying I lie to patients or parents to make them feel better.  I don’t lie to them at all, as a matter of fact.  If something is serious, you bet your ass I tell them what’s going on. What I said (or meant to) was that these patients have something going on, some problem or concern or set of symptoms.  They might not know exactly what it is, but they’ve heard all the scary buzzwords: "meningitis", "cancer", "seizure".  They want the doctor to tell them what’s going on, in hopes that what IS going on ISN’T one of the scary buzzwords. As to the God complex snipe:  people come to me because of my training and knowledge.  (And because I can make a 2 year old with an ear infection smile, but that’s beside the point.)  The reason they come to me and don’t just pick a random stranger off the street to ask about health questions, is because they believe I am someone with special training who can help them get an answer to their questions. I’m not God, and I certainly don’t make any pretense thataway.  But I *am* someone with years of training and the knowledge and ability to authoritatively tell a concerned Mommy, "No, Suzie doesn’t have meningitis, and here’s why…"  *That’s* what the Mommy wants to hear.  She doesn’t bring Suzie to my office because she is dreadfully afraid that Suzie has a cold;  she’s worried that the fever meant Suzie is going to die like the kid she heard about on Nightline. If recognizing that I know a lot of "doctor stuff" means I have a God complex…well, I guess you’d have to say I do.  Sorry you have such distaste for people who know more than you. Mark, MD

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>ok, so he has a god complex and he isn’t getting enough sex?? >– >Dawn:

Ok, Ka, so you think its wrong for Rich to offer his insights into other’s posts but you won’t hesitate to do the exact same.  A good net-nanny wouldn’t be a lying, hypocritical, copycat.  BTW, your jealousy of Aloha Rich is showing…

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> What a stupid statement! If your back is out of place,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,let me > assure you it doesn’t get better by doing nothing! > BUZZ OFF,,,,,,,,,,,,,,you don’t have a clue! > I am getting SOOOOOOOOOOOO sick and tired of this nonchalant attitude. You are > a disgrace of a doctor! > BARF,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

jan, these are the types of responses that have earned you your reputation. your emotions get the best of you. — Dawn: "You’re not fleeing, you’re…moving at a brisk pace." Buffy: "Quaintly referred to in some cultures as ‘The Big Scairdy Run-Away’."

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ok, so he has a god complex and he isn’t getting enough sex?? — Dawn: "You’re not fleeing, you’re…moving at a brisk pace." Buffy: "Quaintly referred to in some cultures as ‘The Big Scairdy Run-Away’."

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> It was Mark MD. Take a look at this:

Response:

>> > Actually, Jan, it’s how little *you* know.  You’ve never been a > > doctor, so you haven’t had the opportunity to see it from the other > > side. >not sure who wrote this, but whoever it is has a serious god complex going >on.

It was Mark MD. Take a look at this: And of course he is wrong and it appears didn’t even bother to read the article about Ben Kolb. Still waiting for him to reply. Who is more dangerous? Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>As several people have pointed out, what went wrong with the operation on Ben >>Kolb was not a "procedure". >The PROCEDURE was the operation. > NO IT WAS NOT! >        ?We had information about a common *procedure* used throughout the > world so we knew that we had a key to making this safer,? says Haas… >The PRACTICE was how  the unlabelled >chemicals were handled > WRONG! > READ AGAIN! > I’ll read it later,,,,,,,,,,,,and I’ll expect you to PROVE your claims and your > LIES! > Jan

***Please forgive the profanity to follow, but I feel it is well-deserved*** Jan, you sweet nincompoop, what the FUCK is your problem?  You have made an insane mission out of the semantic difference between the words "procedure" and "practice".  What the HELL does it matter whether Peter B. used one or the other??!!  The principle is the same, and you have this blithering, idiotic fixation on his "LIE" in using one versus the other… Again, what the FUCK is your problem with using one word over the other? Argue over concepts and principles, not this stupid banter over the miniscule and completely unimportant difference between the word "procedure" and the word "practice". To put it another way, what is the substantive difference between the following two statements: 1)  "It is common practice to brush one’s teeth before bedtime." 2)  "It is the common procedure to brush one’s teeth before bedtime." Gosh Almighty, woman!  Do you have nothing more important to talk about than to jabber incessantly about whether Peter B used the "right" word to describe the procedure/practice?  Give it a fucking REST, already! Mark, MD  (Not feeling particularly "pediatrician-y" this evening…) >many of us have family members in the health industry, and although we might >not be doctors ourselves and don’t have that specific POV, there is no >reason to belittle someone for not having first hand MD experience in these >discussions. > > On the other hand, people like Peter M and I see it every day: > > concerned patients/Mommies who present to the office with "X" sign or > > symptom, and all they really want is reassurance that it’s not > > serious. >bullshit.

Indeed. >i am concerned mommy. i do not ever just want assurance that something isn’t >serious. i want the TRUTH. >and don’t you doubt that in your next throes of godhead. > > We’re in the position to say, "It’s not cancer", or "It’s not > > meningitis."  They don’t always want a drug or a big > > explanation…VERY often, all they want is to have a doctor tell them > > that they’ll be okay. >again, bullshit. we want the truth. no one wants bad news. but no one wants >to be patronized or jerked around either. how ridiculous of you to think >otherwise.

Sounds a bit like Rich ah? > > Chiros, OTOH, (some of them at least) seem to have "trained" their > > clientele to believe that without regular adjustments, their health > > will fail and they’ll become chronically ill. >then they (the ones who do this) should be shut down.

This is just more BS from Mark. Something he read in a book. I believe the rest of the post was from Michelle. Jan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The very definition of acute back pain is that it goes away after a > short period of time, treated or not.  If someone wants to spend money > to see a DC or MD for it, all well & good — just as they may choose > to use anti-inflammatories, massage, or other modalities to relieve > the pain sooner rather than waiting a few weeks or less for the pain > to go away on its own.  Some of us choose to let Nature take its > course for acute back pain. >no one should go to a chiro, acupuncturist, or an MD for immediate onset of >backpain imho. >there isn’t anything any one of them can do or diagnose right away. > Chronic back pain — different story. >exactly. > Finding the cause (including > stuff like poor body mechanics) & treating the pain & disability is > important, if only because chronic pain takes its toll on the patient. >  Patients respond differently to various treatment, so no one > treatment is effective for everyone, conventional or alternative. >yes. > We have become a culture of people who expect instant relief from our > problems. >somewhat true. > Whether this relief comes from DC’s, MD’s, a pill bottle, a > liquor bottle — it doesn’t make much difference to many, many people. >many people, yes, but not all. folks are getting a clue any more. but i get >your point. >  Unfortunately, this impatience & unwillingness to tolerate discomfort > for even a short period of time has led to a lot of problems from the > "solutions" so many utilize — money wasted, addiction, unecessary > time devoted to a situation that can often resolve itself in a short > period of time. >i agree. but WHO is to judge *where* the money is best wasted? the chiro, >the acupuncturist, or the md/pharmacist? it’s ALL basically a crap shoot. >and THAT is what folks need to understand. > Giving the body a chance to heal itself in such short > term situations is an option many refuse to consider. >exactly. and that is the fault of the conventional medical arena far moreso >than it is of the alternative one. ((NSAIDS)) >– >Dawn: "You’re not fleeing, you’re…moving at a brisk pace." >Buffy: "Quaintly referred to in some cultures as ‘The Big Scairdy >Run-Away’."

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